speaker-0 (00:00)
Welcome to the Landy Peak Podcast. I'm your host and friend, Landy Peak, and I am thrilled to have you join me. In each episode, we will explore what makes life truly fulfilling. Happiness, deep connections, and self-discovery. Together, we'll uncover that happiness is not a destination, but a way of living. Now, let's dive into today's episode.
You can be surrounded by people, married, raising kids, doing life with a full calendar, and still feel deeply, painfully alone. Not because you do not have people. Not because your life looks empty, but because somewhere along the way, you stopped feeling seen. Welcome back to the Landy Peak Podcast. This is your host and friend, Landy Peak. In this episode, I'm joined by Stacey Rockline, relationship coach, author, and a
powerful voice in the conversation around connection, intimacy, and loneliness. And we are talking about something so many women experience but rarely talk about. What it feels like to be in the middle of a very full life and still feel emotionally disconnected and lonely. We talk about why loneliness shows up in marriage, motherhood, and long-term partnership.
How resentment builds when your needs go unnamed. Why so many women feel like the emotional leader in their relationships and what it actually looks like to create deeper intimacy without waiting for everything to magically change on its own. This conversation is honest, validating, and incredibly useful. If you have been craving deeper connection, clearer communication, and relationships that actually feel like support, not just responsibility,
This episode is for you. Let's get to it. Welcome, Stacey Rockline to the Landy Peak podcast. Stacey, I'm so thrilled you're here. Can you share a little bit about yourself so the listener can get to know you?
speaker-1 (02:13)
Yeah, for sure. Thank you for having me. I am Stacey Rockline. I'm a relationship coach, an author. I am a content creator mostly on YouTube and I'm on a mission to eradicate loneliness, which sounds really huge, but I think that we can do that one conversation at a time, one relationship at a time. And my work is with one-on-one with women.
I have a membership group and online classes to help people nourish their relationships, build them, sustain them, create more intimacy in them. And in my private life, I have three sons that are two are adults and one is on his way. And I've been married for 31 years and live in Boise.
speaker-0 (03:06)
That's awesome. One of the things that I loved when we first connected is that you are talking about loneliness because I think it's something a lot of people experience, but we're not talking about it. We're not identifying it. We're just kind of struggling alone. Can you share a little bit more about who you're seeing as lonely and what that looks like?
speaker-1 (03:28)
my gosh, we could go in a lot of places. ⁓ Well, let me first define it. So loneliness, I think of as when you don't feel seen, when you don't feel understood. So the reason I want to define it first is because we can have so many relationships and feel really lonely if that's what's happening. And, you know, I work with mostly women and they're all it's all over the place. Sometimes it's long marriages where you've been busy and
know, kids are active and you're both working and it just got away from you. And so then you're talking logistics, like who's doing this, who's picking up who, whatever, or even where are we going on our next vacation, but not really seeing each other. And that, I think that that's what contributes to kind of that midlife disconnect. And sometimes I think it's called like gray divorce, where people just wake up and they're like, wait, I don't feel seen here.
And I think that is very correctable. Sometimes we get out in the weeds, but we can pull back, you know, pull back in with some simple, you know, just some simple reconnections. So in another place that I see a lot because I have three sons, I think that, you know, the the young male up through, you know, middle aged men, they have a lot of loneliness because they don't feel seen also. And
And don't, you know, even more so, I think, than women don't really have language to talk about it or don't know, can't identify what it is. And so, I mean, I think it's all over the place, to be honest.
speaker-0 (05:10)
I agree. And one of the things, and I'm so glad you brought up young men because my whole view really is around women. That's, that is the cohort that I work with. That is my personal experience. And there is so much loneliness there where I have so many clients who are in relationships, but still feel so lonely. And you're right. It's because we are navigating all the to-dos.
but we're not being seen as humans in these roles, we're seen as the roles. There is that population of young men that are also really lonely. And it's probably spread out a lot more than we're just identifying two populations. But I think some of that is not having the language, not having the skills to be able to reach out, not knowing what to do, and perhaps not even identifying as lonely. so many of my clients were
speaker-1 (05:54)
for sure.
speaker-0 (06:09)
they're in relationships. So they're not saying I'm lonely. I'm surrounded by people and I don't feel seen and I don't feel heard and I don't feel valued. And it's that loneliness sensation that we're really tuning into.
speaker-1 (06:25)
Totally, totally. And I think it's interesting, especially since you work with women and so likely a lot of mothers, motherhood is kind of a trip because you have, know, most of your work relationally is with these people who it's not their job to see us. We're almost like subhuman. ⁓ They don't think of you as a...
speaker-0 (06:27)
it's
speaker-1 (06:51)
person, a human, a woman who needs to be seen. And so you have all these relationships where that's just not going to happen at all anyway. That's not their job. They're supposed to go, you know, create their other relationships, but that even more so puts the strain of feeling seen on your partnerships and your friendships because you're sacrificing so much of your heart and energy to people whose job isn't to see you.
speaker-0 (07:18)
Right. And I'm glad you really identified that because I think a lot of us have this real internal struggle where we want to be seen by our kids and it's not their job. And dealing with immature nervous systems and brains that just don't have the capability like their whole focus. And as I have a preteen and I'm really seeing that shift to the whole focus is now her centered. And there is now that push away from parents and mom and
Friends are much more priority now and that's normal and natural. But it doesn't, just because we know it's normal and natural and this is where we want them to go, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. ⁓ We're being pushed away and it's here's one more relationship that I was needed and I'm no longer needed even if I wasn't seen, I'm not needed or wanted in the same way.
speaker-1 (07:53)
Totally.
speaker-0 (08:15)
And we're starting to look at how can we bring things in? Cause a lot of us end up with limited friends because we so focus on our kids and our friends end up revolving around our kids because it's the moms that you're doing things with around kid activities. And that becomes your whole friend group. And as that shifts and changes, it's like, where am I? And as partners, we're no, we're so busy. This midlife space is so busy with
caretaking older parents or grandparents and our kiddos and trying to do work. And we often built careers that were pretty integral to now and it's hard to just step back. What do we do? How do we start those conversations when it's like, okay, I'm hearing this and I am self identifying. I am lonely in a really busy world, but I don't know what the next step is.
speaker-1 (09:07)
Yes, that's a great question. I mean, I am a huge believer in partnerships. I think that relationships are flexible. I think they're adaptable. I understand what it feels like to get to a point where it just feels like it's too hard and I can't, or we assume the other person can't change. But I think that partners can be very surprising. It's about first, like you said, self-identifying. That's really important. And then
And I want to say this because I think it's really important to point out. It will feel like an emotional burden to have to be the person in a relationship to guide it closer and to teach the other person how to show up for you. And it is unfair and it's unfair falls on women's shoulders. And I just want to acknowledge that because we can take that feeling of emotional burden and be like, it's too much. It's too much. But
And that's totally fine if it is too much. That'll take you down one path. And if you want to go down the path towards more emotional intimacy with a partner you have, both are true. It's not fair, but you maybe have to be the leader. And so then it comes down to approaching your partner with some very specific, specific, specific ⁓ instructions. Like, I don't feel seen. And what that means is
I feel like we're talking but you're not hearing me or you're not acknowledging me. You're not empathizing. You're not compassionate. I don't want you to solve my problem. I just want to be heard. So it's being very specific because our partners will hear I'm failing her. I'm not providing what she needs. I'm doing a bad job and they aren't doing a bad job. They're doing the job they've done up till this point, but you can invite them into a closer relationship.
by saying, this is what it looks like specifically. I need a few minutes. I had a rough time today. I just want to talk about this. I just want you to listen. That's all you have to do. You don't need to solve any problems. And in fact, when you solve problems, it makes me feel like you're not listening. So just say, I hear you. That sucks. I'm sorry it happened to you. Like give them language. Be reassuring that they haven't failed you, but there is a way that you would like them to show up.
people will surprise you.
speaker-0 (11:34)
my gosh. Yes. And so excited that you brought that in because there is this dynamic in relationships where a lot of men are feeling that they're being attacked, that they're doing something wrong that, and you're right, there is that fixing component that a lot of men bring in and they see struggle in their partner and want to swoop in and fix it in some way, but they have no idea what way and that fixing that kind of mismatch of communication.
makes a lot of women feel like we're not seen, we're not heard, we're undervalued. Like, I just want you to see me and hear me, not go into task things that we need to do to fix this, change this. And I found in my own relationship that there is that need to be very specific with communication. And I love that you said, yes, we're carrying that extra burden. And what I've really come to is that
we get to be the leaders in that relationship. And that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be an extra burden. It gets to be, it's like flipping how we're looking at it, right? We can feel like that heavy burden and it's so unfair. And why do I have to be the one that's always dot, dot, dot to get our relationship together? I'm the one that repairs. I'm the one that has to have the ideas to bring forward. I'm the one that brings up all the conversations. But if we look at ourselves as, okay, we can have that opportunity to be a leader.
We get to present, we get to walk down this path and say, come with me. Then there's a little bit of a shift instead of being like, my gosh, you're doing it wrong to, Hey, here's an idea. And it takes subtle nuance. And it's not like we're going to get it right all the time. Right. Does that shift at least in my own life, let me see. Okay. This isn't me. Just the only one caring about the relationship. It's me going out and seeking out new ideas and saying, ⁓
Here's a different way.
speaker-1 (13:30)
I'm
obsessed with your reframe. That is amazing. Yes, exactly.
speaker-0 (13:34)
⁓
How can I do this so I don't get angry in my own relationship? But it really is when I saw myself as a leader and a leader in parenting and a leader in my relationship and a leader in my business and a leader, it takes off. I get to be the idea creator. I get to put a lot out there and then we get to see what's coming in. And I come at it in such a different energy of like, this is fun. Let's see what we can do.
conversations and my husband's a lot more open to conversations when I'm approaching it that way with that energy. And then getting to I he really does need the specifics and it's like more specifics and I love him dearly but more specifics than I actually thought he would need. Okay, this is what I need you to hug me right now. And you to sit and just listen and I'm just going to cry just please sit here.
And really lining that out. And then also seeing the rigidity that comes in of like, do I hug you every time? It's like, I really do need until I have a pattern. Exactly. And he's always willing to meet that. I have no idea how to meet it unless I gave him the answers.
speaker-1 (14:50)
You're so right. the other thing you were saying that I'm hearing anyway is they'll make mistakes. Like we have to allow people to make mistakes. It's not going to be perfect. Like you said, they're going to be, they're not going to get it right until they get comfortable with, ⁓ I understand how to show up now. Now I don't have to like follow the formula. It's going to unfold naturally.
speaker-0 (15:12)
Right. And it is clunky at times when we're following the formula and it's like, I'm melting down and I'm telling you, please hug me. But there is in that growth of the relationship, really being both partners willing to try. It's just a lot of times we have no idea. And then in my own relationship, being able to ask like, what do you need? Talk about that. He needs space and having that like,
speaker-1 (15:35)
Okay, yes.
speaker-0 (15:40)
My attachment still is like, my gosh, we get upset. He needs space. I'm like, you're leaving me. And having that communication of like, okay, he's gonna go walk around the block and he needs that space and we're okay. And so telling him, I need you to tell me we're okay and I'm taking a break. And then it's like, my nervous system goes, yeah, okay, we're okay. I'm gonna be mad over here. He's gonna go do that. We're gonna come back together. And it deactivates a lot of that.
super tension because we've communicated it, but it is being very explicit in that communication of what we both need.
speaker-1 (16:18)
Well, you know, on his end too, I think this is really important whenever you take a pause or a time out for something, because you have someone who wants to process right now and the other person who needs a minute is to do what you were saying, the reassurance and then.
I'm coming back at this time because for the person who has, you know, an anxious attachment style, when someone's walking away, it feels like, oh my gosh, it's over. I lost my opportunity. They're leaving me instead of they're having their process and they're coming back. So I think it's critical for those of us who do need to step away to say, I'm going to take a break. I need to think about this. I'm coming back in an hour by the end of today. You know, if I'm mad in the morning so that that other person's
nervous system is regulated. And the other thing that I was hearing you say that's really cool too is the, you know, when we start this work as women, sometimes I think that we are hoping to teach the other person how to show up for us. But the other side of it is when they start to show up for themselves and say, I had a lot of anxiety today. hearing those things come out of my partner's mouth, like,
that I never would have heard decades ago, never in a million years, like I'm worried about this or, you that's another piece of that emotional intimacy you create when you start to lead us into new territory. And what a gift for them. Like that really, I think helps with that male loneliness component that can happen on their end.
speaker-0 (17:54)
Yes, and as you kind of wove in, you know, that young male that doesn't have the language, we are now married to what used to be a young male who doesn't have the language, who still doesn't have the language, and often feels lonely in that relationship too. We're not self-identifying and we have no idea. Language-wise, think women, we seek out language. We want to know like, what is this? And we talk it through and we're understanding and we're consuming a lot of information to kind of figure out what's going on in our lives.
I don't see my partner doing the same thing and I can't generalize all men, but I don't see my partner doing the same thing. It is not, let's go find the language to describe what I'm experiencing. It is kind of sitting in stewing in that experience often alone. But when you're right, as we do lead in this different area and we start talking about things and opening it up, there is more of that language that comes in. And I hadn't even clued in until you said that. And my husband literally was saying this morning, like, Ooh,
I just got hit with a lot of anxiety and he has a lot of big stuff going on at work. And so it makes sense, but it was that identifying I'm feeling that sensation as I'm getting ready for work to be able, instead of just kind of pushing through it. And that's such a huge shift because now he's more available for my language to say, I'm anxious and this is what I need. And I'm available to support cause he's able to identify it. And our kids are hearing that. Yeah.
speaker-1 (19:21)
for sure.
speaker-0 (19:21)
Another
layer as we come in is I have a son, he is learning more language around emotions and how to support and what feelings inside our body. Cause a lot of emotions are coming out as feelings. And if we're not tuning in and tapping in, it's like, ⁓ that's six space in my stomach. That's anxiety. And so it's like, ⁓ my stomach just feels off. And you know, we ride over it and try to self correct without knowing what it is.
speaker-1 (19:50)
Totally know that you're exactly right. Just demonstrating in front of them those words that they can then use and then be able to show up for partners and ask for what they need. You especially you've got a young woman who, you know, we want to believe that every young woman coming into womanhood is not going to have to...
walk the hard path we've walked and gets to immediately say these are my expectations of a partner and how the other person show up for her. Yeah.
speaker-0 (20:21)
which is huge. It really is. And just hearing my own kids as I use a lot of emotional language and we talk a lot, but my own kids, and as they have arguments with friends, you know, listening, how there's a lot more language in talking things out and repairing that ruptured relationship because we aren't going to get it perfect and we are going to have disagreements. And so can you talk a little bit more about that emotional intimacy and
speaker-1 (20:28)
Or you do.
speaker-0 (20:50)
how we do need to repair as we do have the breaks and the practices and the tries and the not so perfect as we're getting to a more intimate relationship.
speaker-1 (21:01)
Yeah, I mean, I love conflict because it is it's a pathway as long as we repair, you know, people will come to me and say, my partner and I are fighting so much. It feels awful. Maybe we shouldn't be together. And I'm like, OK, it's not the conflict that it's the lack of repair, because if you're having conflict and keep working on how you do it, of course, but you're coming back and you're repairing you.
are learning things about the other person that you would never know if you didn't bump up against each other. Like there is an intimacy in saying that hurt me for this reason that if we never had an argument that other person would not know that about me. And so there's this beautiful opportunity if we can come back and repair, apologize, know, make amends and then talk about what was under here.
not just the like it was the dishes in the sink, but like what is underneath it? Like what is the feeling of disrespect or whatever it is? And even better, like, and you know where that comes from for me is this experience in my childhood. And so I'm sensitive and I kind of think about these things as like landmines. And what we want is a map of the other person's landmines so we can just.
be gentle around them and be caring around them. And we want them to have a map of ours. Not that we're off the hook for doing our own personal work, because you and I obviously believe that we should, but it does help to be able to mark those for the other person. so, you know, when people are like, yeah, we never argue, I'm always like, either it's not true, or you guys aren't saying things that are important to you, or...
you're losing an opportunity to get to know that person in the like, in the contrast. And so I think conflict is one of our best gifts, honestly.
speaker-0 (23:03)
And I think you're the first one that's, I've ever heard say that. And it's like, ⁓ this exhale that I felt in my body as like, love conflict because you're right. That is where we're getting kind of the nitty gritty and the idea of mapping our own and our partner's landmines and knowing that those are sensitive areas. That doesn't mean we don't do our own work, but we know that those are going to be sensitive areas that when we're stressed, when we're hungry, when we're overwhelmed, when we're tired,
all of those extra things that kind of wear us down and we have less resources, those are going to be the areas that are going to be the tipping points that are going to really start the arguments that are going to be the points that it's like, Ooh, I'm going to lose it over. But when we know those patterns, and I know for my husband and I, had an argument for years, that's the same pattern, different topics, but it's the same general idea. And as we really worked through it, came back down to an
hit my underlying childhood thing, his underlying childhood thing, that just starts bumping up and triggering each other. And so the surface thing that we argued about wasn't really what the issue was. It was how we were both feeling underneath and him never feeling good enough and me feeling that rejection. And it's like, okay, here we go again.
And once we identified that underlying issue of like, okay, he never feels good enough. And so when I come to, didn't do the dishes, the garbage needs taken out, whatever my surface complaint was that I didn't feel, I felt rejected and I felt unseen. And so I'm like, just see me and all of the work and all the mental load that I'm carrying. So when I bring it to here's all the load I'm carrying, can you please see me?
He took it as I'm not good enough because I'm not meeting enough of her needs. So I'm going to start doing the dishes and then laundry and like, it's not the stuff that I want you to do. I want you to see like all of this non visible stuff that I'm carrying came down to that. And it's like, wait, the argument dissipated because then we could meet each other's needs at that lower, deeper, instead of the surface argument over the chores.
speaker-1 (25:17)
level?
That makes me want to cry honestly, Landy, because it's so precious, right? That think about the fact that you were both willing to kind of dig a little bit to get down to know something so intimate about him and for him to know something so intimate about you. Like that's so powerful. That is how you really create this emotional intimacy. And it all came from an argument like, or can over and over.
The repetitive arguments are the best because they will tell you so much. And so, yeah, but it's just being a little courageous to be willing to go in together and figure that stuff out. is a powerful experience. Thank you.
speaker-0 (26:03)
Yeah, it is incredibly powerful and brought us so much closer together in understanding. And now we still have arguments and conflict and we're able to really kind of see those underlying themes that go in. So we're not having the same kind of blow up patterns where it's just like, Oh my gosh, this gets too big. It is, Oh, okay. I can see this. We know he needs space. I need reassurance.
then we're going to come back together and figure out what's underlying. But we're both more willing and have the emotional capacity to talk about it and talk it out. And also knowing like, okay, we're going to bump up against some emotional capacity things where this is going to be a new stretch and this is going to be a new, you know, really deep dive in and can be uncomfortable and clunky as we figure out. Yes. Yes. It different level. So
speaker-1 (26:56)
Yeah.
speaker-0 (27:00)
When you're feeling kind of lonely in that relationship, what do you suggest people do so that we can start having more of that emotional intimacy?
speaker-1 (27:11)
I mean, I think the first thing is to, one of my like favorite tools is to ask yourself a question, you know, about what you're at when you're feeling activated. What is the story I'm telling myself right now? Because if we can start to tease out what actually happened, you know, cause something happened that hurt your feelings or something that happened that made you feel unseen or invisible. But then we're like, well,
I know why that happened because he's like this or he's like this, you know, then we fill in story. And so we just generate something that's far bigger than it probably is. So first I would say just get honest with yourself and be try to tease out what actually happened so that you can identify that. And then if you want to go have a conversation, which I highly recommend, like so here's a process that I think is is ⁓ is the greatest process to use every day anytime you're activated.
The first thing it's called arcs. the reason it's called that is think about it like a storyline, okay? Like it's an arc. That's just to help you with the A-R-C-S. But I'm gonna walk you through it. The first is to acknowledge yourself. When we want an apology, we want acknowledgement that our feelings are hurt, whether that's just by loneliness or neglect or whatever it may be. We have to learn to acknowledge ourselves because a lot of times we aren't gonna get the apology. We're not gonna get the acknowledgement.
And we deserve it. You we deserve to be seen. So the first thing we can do is see ourselves by saying, okay, here's what happened. You know, this isn't my story, but this is actually what happened. And to normalize our feelings, right? It makes perfect sense that I feel, you know, upset about the dishes because, you know, I work really hard. It's a totally normal to want appreciation for all the things that I do around here. Like you first acknowledge yourself. That's the A. R is release.
Let you know feel the feeling you're gonna you're having a feeling experience But it won't stay if you don't spin on it. So just sit and breathe through it It's going to it's going to leave you unless you feed the fire ⁓ See is communicate. So what do you need to communicate to the other person to? Maybe you just want them to know that's okay. Maybe you want to ask for something different next time
Maybe you wanna give them a little like hint. You know, when I do this, it's probably because I'm feeling reactive about this thing. Like whatever it is that you can communicate so that you can change the future. That's the beauty of conflict or having a feeling that is related to somebody else is that if we just look at those and we actually process a little bit, we can prevent all those in the future or, know, with some mistakes here and there, but.
still change the trajectory. And then the last one is S for self. How can you self support? What is coming up for you? How can you care for yourself in the moment? Like if it's reinforcing a limiting belief, look at it, you know, and question it, challenge it. If you just really need to continue with more validation, do that. What do you need to care for yourself?
because at the end of the day, that's all we really have is our ability to care for ourselves. So arcs, A, give yourself acknowledgement, R, release the experience by just sitting at the emotion, C, communicate with your partner, whoever it is that you need to, coworker, child, what you need for it to be corrected or changed in the future, and then S, care for yourself. How can you self-support?
speaker-0 (31:03)
I love that. And really kind of walking through and I'm doing a lot of that without, or like having that reference. Yeah. It's like, there is that acknowledgement. this, and I, I mean, I talk to myself and my emotions all the time. okay, I'm really upset here. And you know, what is that emotion? Okay. Sadness, I see you. Like anger, I see you. Like we meet my, my favorite thing that I say to myself is like,
speaker-1 (31:10)
I'm you are.
speaker-0 (31:32)
Okay, anger, we meet again. And it's, again, I know this pattern. I know what this feels like. And really just acknowledging that and being able to sit in that emotion. And I think it's something like what an emotion lasts for like 90 seconds. Don't fan the flames. Like it will wash through you in a minute and a half. And so if we can kind of let that go and not get on the story train,
speaker-1 (31:48)
90 seconds. Yes.
speaker-0 (31:59)
where it's like, okay, we're fanning those flames. We're really wrapping it up because the stories and the meanings that we're meaning that we're tying to things are more what are going to fan our flames and create more anger and more sadness than the actual underlying emotion and event. And so I love how you're kind of walking through a lot, acknowledge it. Let's let it just pass through us because 90 seconds set a stopwatch. It'll go through. And then that communication.
And I communicate with the emotions. I communicate to you with, ⁓ you know, the person and then that self support. that I think, especially after we've been activated, bringing in that self support is where we're rewriting that pattern because it's like, okay, typically we're going to go on that self spiral. And I had a client who shared, got mad at her daughter because her daughter, just spent a ton of time like organizing stuff and her daughter comes in and just like, whoosh. ⁓
speaker-1 (32:58)
you
speaker-0 (32:59)
and they asked at the daughter, she's like, I felt like I had two different personalities because her typical pattern was I activate, I'm mad, and then I weave the story. she's like, I would have been mad the rest of the day and probably into the next day. And it would have like impacted everything through that day. And she's like, she followed kind of that arc without knowing it, but it was like, okay, I felt the emotion and then really acknowledged like I have every right to be mad here.
because I worked really hard and she just came without even thinking about it, know, messed up everything. That's an okay, normal feeling to have. That is reasonable for what happened. And then she's like, and then I brought in some self-supports that I talk about, you know, real nervous system supports. She's like, and then like the switch flipped and I was able to calmly talk to my daughter and explain like, this is why I was mad.
If I'd come in and mess up all your dolls that you would just work so hard on, like really related it to her daughter. She's like, and then it was done. And she's like, it felt so different from being like, whoosh, this is going to take over my whole day to, ⁓ I activated. I addressed it and I'm done. We communicated without knowing it, giving that self support and it closed the whole thing, wrapped it in a tight little bow. Like I love anything that can close that loop.
Cause those open loops where we have things allowing to just kind of fester and go, aren't supporting us. But if we can close the story, close the loop, then we're feeling better. And so using that without having the language, we'd walk through your arc and it is such a beautiful way to shift because then it's not the stories and the meanings that are carrying over like, my gosh, he's so awful or she's always messes up my stuff or, know, he never listens to me. Those are the stories. Yeah.
looking at what actually is happening now and the underlying pattern of I don't feel valued very often in my relationship. So when this happens, it's really more of a being valued issue, not a this top level issue.
speaker-1 (35:09)
And I
think that what you're saying is really ⁓ critical is knowing, figuring out what you need because if, like your example, it's not the dishes in the sink. Someone can be like, shoot, well then I'll just do them. And it's like, well, I would benefit 10 times more from you having said, holy cow, I really appreciate that you planned a meal, grocery shopped, made dinner.
Sometimes what we actually want isn't someone to help, it's to be appreciated. we don't know that until we do that self-examination, that self-validation you were talking about, to figure out what exactly is it that I need. And I am sure that your client just, there is so much pride when we take ourselves through an experience and it feels so different than something we'd done before. I am sure that she was just like, look at me, look at what I just did. Like that's you.
speaker-0 (36:07)
It is huge. And it's really shifting than how we're showing up. And also like our own inner peace because it's constantly stewing the whole day around something that happened. Like we lost that day for a chance to have fun, to a chance to, you know, be able to enjoy things. And I see, you know, that pattern where we do get activated and then we hold onto it. And it's like that grudge holding, but we create those stories.
And just thinking about somebody that I know that, you had a rough spot in a holiday, but then it ruins the rest of the holiday. I holidays are so emotionally tense anyway, cause we bring in so many stories and meanings and underlying issues in there. But then to have like, okay, Christmas is ruined because of this versus we had a little argument and we moved on and had a good rest of the day.
speaker-1 (36:46)
Yes.
speaker-0 (37:06)
a real shift in our own happiness when we can kind of close that loop and say, okay, it was an argument. We settled, you know, I was heard. I acknowledged myself. I self-soothed and then I can enjoy the rest of the day.
speaker-1 (37:20)
Right, and what you were saying earlier when we were talking and you were talking about leadership, I mean, I think that you're talking about self leadership. And what I loved that you were saying then was that it makes you feel a little more excited. And so for your client who just watched herself have that experience.
you're less afraid next time something activates you and you're a little bit excited because you're kind of like, Ooh, I have like a new superpower. So the next time I get triggered, I know what to do and I know what I can do for myself. And that kind of makes anything that triggers us a little more fun to work with because it's got that excitement you were talking about.
speaker-0 (38:01)
It really does. And we get to see things. And one of the things that we've worked on with her is kind of bringing those boundaries of like, it's okay. And so I'd love you to speak to some of those boundaries in those intimate relationships, because a lot of times when we're coming in and we're going to be the leader and we're stepping in and saying, okay, I want to shift how things have been working. We're kind of pulling the rug out from under the other person and seeing
Okay, I have to restructure the boundaries around me when maybe I was somebody that you can, I wasn't going to say how I felt and I'm going to let everybody kind of walk. I don't want to say walk over me, but I'm going to bend over backwards to serve everybody's needs. internally being. Yes, exactly. That's what I was going for. Thank you. Constantly presenting. So I am showing one side and internally having this big struggle.
speaker-1 (38:48)
Resentment resentment
you
speaker-0 (38:58)
To be able to shift that and have that emotional intimacy, we have to set up new boundaries. Meaning I'm not going to do everything for you that I used to, and I'm going to expect you to do some different things. Can you speak to that?
speaker-1 (39:10)
Yes, yes. Well, the first thing I want to say is, you know, if you feel anyone who's listening feels they haven't done a good job of setting boundaries, I just want to give yourself grace and acknowledge that that's probably because relationships are really important to you and connection is really important to you. And avoiding boundaries has been a way you felt wouldn't disrupt connection. So I just don't want anyone to feel bad if that's where they're coming in.
because it's normal and so many of us struggle with it. I also want to acknowledge that when you do boundaries, it almost feels painful for some people because it's frightening. The judgment you might get, the violation you might get of the boundary, the disconnection, know, nothing will kill me more than a kid who's just like, fine, door slam. And I'm like, heart, you know, like, but that doesn't mean that we can't do boundaries.
So I think about boundaries as a circle of safety around a relationship. And inside are all of the behaviors and actions that support both of us and support the relationship. And then outside are all the things that are not tolerable. And so that circle is gonna look different in every relationship because relationships are different, like with a kid and a parent or a parent and a parent or a romantic partnership or a friendship.
And people's tolerances are going to be different. So there's no, you know, black and white version of this, but that circle of safety is really important because it's protecting us. It's protecting us so that we can create a connection that is got that just the right amount of vulnerability that you are able to be seen and know the other person is not going to disregard you, you know, walk all over you if that's what's happening.
⁓ be an aggressor. That's why we put them in place. And you're right, it sometimes feels like here comes mom. We're in, you know, 15 years in its experiment of parenthood and all of the sudden she's like, things are going to be different now and it's disruptive. Or if you're in a long marriage and you've been putting up with something for a long time, you recognize the feeling of resentment. You know you have to do something different.
expect a little bit of pushback because that's normal. You are. changing the rules of the game and it's okay to do that and it's okay that it doesn't just go super swimmingly. Boundaries, I think, are on constant edit. Expect them to be violated at first if people are just getting used to it and all you have to do is do the thing you said you were going to do. You know, if this happens, I'm going to do this. You just have to be consistent.
every worthy relationship in your life will weather boundaries. Every person you're supposed to be building a deep connection with will be able to weather your boundaries. They will, they probably have their own boundaries they may need to bring up to you. I mean, it goes both ways. So they are such a critical and beautifully supported, supportive part of our relationships, but I acknowledge they're scary and, and they take a little bit of like work.
speaker-0 (42:29)
Yes. And I love like it's two-sided as we bring in boundaries, there will probably be boundaries that other people need and to expect those boundary violations because this is new. And so we can't expect, okay. And I think we sometimes when we bring in boundaries, we have this expectation. I'm going to say this and everybody's going to follow it. And when we don't
get that response, we either look at ourselves as like, did something wrong or they're wrong. But it really is kind of like, okay, we're seeing this is the new boundary. And as parents, we do this with our kids all the time because they're constantly growing and constantly changing. I think that feels a little bit more comfortable for people than with partners of like, okay, so now we have to negotiate what are the boundaries around
social media, if a kiddo has never been, you know, they're now old enough to do social media or they're now old enough to have a phone or when they have a car, right? There's going to be those new renegotiated boundaries because it's a new area. We kind of expect that, but with our partnerships, we're looking at, so I'm putting in a boundary in an existing relationship that has an existing pattern. I'm going to say it. And there is going to be that bump up because
It's a new thing and we're going to fall back to old patterns and it's following. And I love you just following what you say. And that's how we do create boundaries with our kids. It's like, Nope. I said two hours of screen time. It's two hours of screen time. They're going to push against that and we're going to come back to it. Sorry, kiddo. It's two hours of screen time. It's not a threat to us. It is just, this is the boundary and we're going to keep reinforcing it.
And when we look at that with our partners and say, okay, very kindly and lovingly, this is the boundary and I'm going to keep reinforcing it. And as we keep reinforcing it, it doesn't have to be a big argument. It could, right? Because we have ruptures that are going to happen, but if we come back to there's nothing wrong with that person and there's nothing wrong with me, this is just the new rule guide that we're Making sure everybody knows the rule guide too. Cause we put in those boundaries in our head.
speaker-1 (44:41)
Exactly.
speaker-0 (44:44)
but we don't necessarily have the confidence to say, okay, this is what I need. And then we get the ruptures, but they don't even know that they're breaking that boundary.
speaker-1 (44:52)
Yeah, that's really critical what you said. No one can read our minds. We have to be very clear. We have to say, even if we've tolerated something up to this point and we're changing the rules, we have to be able to say, you know, one of my favorite phrases is, I love us too much for this to continue. And so...
you know, let's, mean, I think I've read it in a parenting book, honestly. ⁓ I love us too much for us to keep having arguments that are screaming matches, right? So as soon as volume gets turned up, I'm going to just say like, I need to walk away for an hour. So you're promising to do something and it is different because you've been in, you know, screaming arguments before it's going to be new, but that's okay. Over time, everyone will get used to it and
speaker-0 (45:34)
school.
speaker-1 (45:42)
I don't let, here are some things that I want you to be very forgiving of yourself of if you're listening to this. If you didn't enforce it with perfection and you have to come back later and be like, oops, I messed up. didn't enforce that. That's okay. If it feels like you're really triggered after that conversation that you had, you're having a boundary hangover, that's normal. That's okay. Like those are all, this is messy, messy work. It's worth it, but it's messy and
You know, I just don't want you to have expectations of yourself that make you feel like a failure at boundaries, because you're not. It's just a process that will take some time.
speaker-0 (46:22)
Right. And it is messy and it does take time and it does take practice because even though we think it and see it and believe it, you're right. We don't always have the ability to follow through or the capacity to follow through in that moment. We might set that boundary and then get triggered or fall into an old pattern and they might the same, but it's just keeping that kind of redirection. It's like,
know, your GPS keeps rerouting when I went off, you know, whatever took the wrong turn. I'm rerouting. We're just keep rerouting to come back to that destination that we want. And as long as we're allowing ourselves the grace to be like, okay, I didn't do that the way that I wanted to, or that I envisioned it. And I can try again, without shame blame game, that this is a learning skill. And when we're
learning to play piano or anything else, right? We're not blaming ourselves if we get that wrong. It's like, ⁓ let's try that again. Being with our relationships like, ⁓ let's try that again.
speaker-1 (47:23)
Yeah.
And the learning part too, it may be that you're learning how to do that or there might be information. Like I've put in a boundary before where I thought in my mind it was gonna work and then all of a I was like, ⁓ that was never gonna actually like work out well enough. Like I need a new boundary. That is not, it's not like, let's say you have a parent who is, know, triggers you on the phone and you said, it's the same kind of thing, right? They.
you know, make a negative comment about your partner, let's say with a parent. so you said like, you know what? I can't, I love us too much to continue on like that. When you say that, it makes me feel angry and resentful. I don't want that between us. So if that happens, I'm going to just hang up. Well, then someone finds out, wait, I'm not going to just hang up on my mom. Like I couldn't do it. So then it's just a readjustment. saying like, okay, well, you know what? I'm going to give you one warning.
and then I'm gonna hang up. Like keep playing with it until you find the right thing for you. Sometimes it's actually, it just wasn't the right boundary. It's not that you didn't enforce it. So like you said, there's just learning in there. There's information.
speaker-0 (48:38)
Right. It's lots of, and I love, I talked to somebody and they talk about data. Like everything is just data. And if we can kind of detach and it's like, okay, so this just gave us data, right? So data is I'm not in the space right now that I can just hang up with my mom. That's okay. We thought we had that boundary and we're gonna have to shift it and change it, experiment and come back again.
That's data that just gives us, well, that didn't work the way that we thought it would. So let's try something different. If we look at everything with curiosity and it's like a science, it's like, okay, so we don't create things just first try, right? If you're gonna fine tune, you know, an amazing cookie recipe, you're constantly tweaking it, right? To say like, okay, so if I added this and took away this, or if I added more of this, like, am I gonna get that just right recipe?
It's a constant tweak and it's okay. And I think a lot of us have that kind of belief system that if we say it, then we need to follow through and completely own it. Instead of if we say it and it doesn't work, let's let it go and re-figure out what can work.
speaker-1 (49:53)
Yeah, you said like one of the greatest words and I know you teach your clients this is curiosity. And I think nothing serves us better in our relationships than getting curious about the other person, getting curious about ourselves. It just like kind of, you can feel the energy of it. It has a lightness to it to be like, okay, that didn't work. Like what happened or like this happened between us. What's, I'm curious about what's happening for you.
I'm curious what's happening for me. Like that is such a great guiding, just perspective, right? To stay curious. I love that. Thank you for saying that.
speaker-0 (50:32)
Absolutely. Cause it is such, I think curiosity in any area of our life is going to kind of deactivate a lot of the negative feelings. Like, okay, I'm curious what happened there. I'm curious why it went wrong. I'm curious why they did that. And instead of having that blame, you start to get curious of like, ⁓ and one of the things that I come back to is our brain only gives us certain options. And when we start getting curious about like, ⁓ curious about
another person's response. If you look at their brain only gave them two or three options and they chose from those best two or three options and those options are usually the ones that are most possible, the most exciting, the most available, then it's like, ⁓ okay. So that really was what their brain could give them. And then in that leadership, we can create new things that their brain can give in our brains.
can give us as options. And we've all experienced that where it's like, so you've done something and somebody's like, well, why'd you do that? And I was like, well, I don't know. Like that's what I could come up with. And it's that I didn't have any more knowledge. My brain didn't give me any other options. So I chose what I could. And a lot of our emotional stuff comes back to this is what was available. This is the pattern that comes up. And we say, why did you do that? And it's like, I don't know. And it's like, just shifted that curiosity more than the why.
I'm curious what was going on there. And we deactivate kind of that tension.
speaker-1 (52:03)
But what I love that you just said was away from the why I think that if if anyone if you're gonna make one little like a vocabulary shift in your relationships if you can instead of why be asking people like how'd you come to that kind of like place in this spot or just There's something about why that for some people can be very
like accusatory, even when you don't mean it. And so that is, there are just certain vocabulary shifts that will make a big difference in communication. And that's one of them, switching away from a why to more of a how or wait, to explain that to me, I wanna understand each little piece of that or I don't know, that just made me remember something that, you I think it like goes back to like coaching school, right? To be careful of words that don't send somebody down the wrong track when you really are just curious.
speaker-0 (52:56)
Right. And I think as we are creating kind of that map with ourselves and our partners, knowing those specific words too, that tend to be the hotspots and I is a huge one for a lot of people. ⁓ but knowing like if we have a certain way that we say something and it always has that same kind of triggering effect, how can we switch that? that is we're getting the same idea.
but we're not having that confrontation right away. And it does, it really does shift things if you're like, okay, as soon as I feel like I'm on the spot, I'm getting defensive and we've lost it. Now we're defending and we're, we've lost touch of what the actual issue is.
speaker-1 (53:41)
Yeah, yeah. And on the topic of defensiveness, which I think is really something that we all, we all have defense, defensive behaviors. Everybody's got them. And I used to think that like, when I was going to be completely evolved, I would never get defensive. And that's just not reasonable. So what I always think about is trying to close my gap between feeling defensive and acting defensive. And so I
I'm like, you're just gonna, you're gonna feel defensive and that's okay, Stacey. Like that's just coming up for you, but I can control the action. So I keep trying to close that gap more and more between my defensive feeling and the action I select that I want to have. So if anybody is just feeling like they get defensive and you're down on yourself about it, work less with getting rid of the feeling of being on the defense and more toward.
just see how quickly you can shift into the action that you want to take or how quickly you can shift back into an open perspective instead of giving yourself a hard time for what comes up for you because things come up.
speaker-0 (54:47)
Right. do. And what an incredible shift where we're looking at closing the gap and really kind of teasing apart. There is the feeling of defensiveness and then the action. If we close that gap, so we're not just jumping straight to the action. That's that little step back. That's like, okay, I, again, we're acknowledging those feelings. I feel really defensive right now. And that's okay because whatever came up, it triggered that in me.
but I don't have to take the action that sends us down the trail of the fight that's gonna happen. Really identifying that is huge. And I love the visual of closing the gap. That is like, takes a lot of that pressure off of like, ⁓ this isn't something that I am magically going to be, you know, all kind of, or a lot of us jump into the perfect healing and we hit healed, whatever that means.
right? We're going to have resolved all our childhood traumas and our adult trauma. Then we are never good. We're going to be happy, you know, Ms. Mary sunshine all the time. That's not reality, but you're looking at, having those emotions and we're going to feel defensive at times. And there's a difference between the feelings and the actions and it's actions and closing that gap that we're really focusing on. And when we close it just a little bit, that's success.
speaker-1 (56:08)
Totally. Just like you're saying about your client. Like she just watched herself do something completely different and it was she had the feeling and instead of doing what she used to do, she was able to close that gap and then do what she wanted to do. I mean, it's huge.
speaker-0 (56:23)
It is huge.
my gosh, you're phenomenal.
speaker-1 (56:26)
It's so fun to talk to you.
speaker-0 (56:28)
It's like, can just keep going, but I really want to honor your time. As we come to a close, are there any last parting thoughts that you would love the listener to hear?
speaker-1 (56:38)
Yes, I want to encourage you to take on whatever ⁓ version of forgiveness is yours. Use my book if that will help. But for the purpose of being able to be vulnerable in your relationships, creating enough safety with boundaries so that you can be vulnerable. It's always a little risky to be vulnerable, but you want to take out as much risk as you can because it's that vulnerability
that will create the emotional intimacy that you seek, that will make you feel seen. And those are the connections that are worth everything to us as humans. So I wanna cheer on your vulnerability, but encourage you to do it in whatever way makes you feel emotionally safe so that you can have those deeply connected relationships.
speaker-0 (57:30)
That's incredible advice. Thank you so much. I know. I want to continue the conversation with you. there are people that are listening that want to continue a conversation. Can you share people, share with people how they can connect with you and work with you and about your book? Because we've mentioned it, but I don't think we've highlighted it.
speaker-1 (57:49)
Yeah, this is my newest and first book. It was just published, Forgive Without an Apology. So right away, if you're waiting for an apology, this is going to guide you. And it's for the self healer. And it's a step-by-step guide. has exercises in for learning a process of forgiveness that will empower you and not limit you, kind of disrupt any of your ideas of forgiveness that might be like sticky and make you hesitant to do it. So.
That, if you are feeling like you have healing to do, you wanna learn to set boundaries, there's whole sections about that and create those deeper connections. You can find me by my last name, which is Stacey Rockline, ⁓ anywhere online. I have a pretty active YouTube channel and so that is where my mission to eradicate loneliness is really being played out. Lots of little pieces of advice over there for you short videos. If you just want some quick fixes for things and you can find me.
everywhere else through my name,
speaker-0 (58:48)
gosh. And I will have all of your links down in the show notes. So click to be able to connect because this is such an important topic. And if there's anyone out there feeling lonely or is now self identifying as lonely, that there is support and that there's a lot of us out there. And so it's really kind of that self acknowledgement and then using that arc and a lot of what Stacey has shared. So thank you so much for this incredible conversation.
loving you. ⁓ I just, I really want to appreciate, appreciate and thank you for your time. If this episode hit something real in you, let this be your reminder. Loneliness is not always about being alone. Sometimes it's about being unseen. Sometimes it is caring too much for too long without being met inside it. And sometimes the shift begins with finally having language for what you have been feeling all along.
speaker-1 (59:24)
Thank
speaker-0 (59:46)
I invite you to share this episode with a friend, share it with your partner, or post it to your stories and tag me. These are conversations that help women feel less alone, and you sharing this episode helps it get to the ears of the people who need it most. If you want to continue the conversation with Stacey, you can find her information and her book, Forgive Without an Apology, down in the show notes. And if you're not already, make sure you're subscribed, leave a review, and come back to the next episode.
I am so glad you're here. I wanna tell you, because a lot of us haven't heard it, that you are incredible and you are changing the world just by showing up every single day. I am so glad you're here and I'm grateful that you are in my life. I wanna wish you all the happiness that today can bring and I will talk to you on the next episode. Hey, before you go, just a little bit of legal.
podcast is designed for educational purposes only. It is not to replace any expert advice from your doctors, therapists, coaches, or any other professional that you would work with. It's just a chat with a friend, me, where we get curious about ideas, thoughts, and things that are going on in our lives. And as we're talking about friends, if you know someone who would benefit from a conversation today, please share, because I think the more that we open up these conversations, the more benefit we all get.
So until next time, give yourself a big hug from me and stay curious because that's the fun in this world.
