Landy Peek (00:38)
Welcome back to the Landy Peak Podcast. This is your friend and host, Landy, and I am so excited for today's conversation. If you're a person, everyone leans on, and you're feeling tired and perhaps overwhelmed or stressed out, this episode is for you. Today, we're talking about burnout, people pleasing, and the mental load many women carry.
and how to set boundaries without feeling like the bad guy. My guest is Dr. Angela Downey. She's a family physician in Manitoba, the host of the Co-Dependent Doctor podcast and author of Enough As I Am. And she has a companion journal, Enough As I Grow. We're going to break down what codependency can look like in everyday life, constantly proving yourself, avoiding conflict, doing it all.
what cortisol, your body's main stress hormone, does when it stays high and small ways to start feeling like yourself and a little bit happier and a little bit more regulated. I can't tell you how much fun I had talking to Angela and how incredible she is as she shares her own story in burnout and codependency.
Angela Downey, I want to welcome you to the Landy Peak podcast. I am so thrilled you are here.
Speaker 2 (02:12)
I am so excited to welcome Angela Downey to the Landy Peak podcast. Angela, can you share a little bit about yourself so our audience can get to know you?
Speaker 1 (02:22)
Hi Landi, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I've been looking forward to being on this podcast. love your podcasts, your episodes. So really excited to and honored to be a guest on your show. So thank you for that. I'm Dr. Angela Downey. I'm a family doctor. I practice in Manitoba in Canada, so up North. I'm also the host of the codependent doctor. And that came about because as a practicing family physician,
I burnt out and I just was having trouble managing day to day. And it was through therapy that I found out that I'm a people pleaser. I struggle with setting boundaries every day. So when my practice got really busy and when COVID hit and I wasn't able to set boundaries, I wasn't able to, you know, just, just live life as me. And I struggled to like shape shift and be what people wanted me to be.
that's when I realized that there was a problem. And I learned the term codependency when I was going through therapy. And yeah, so once I burned out, ended up going to codependence anonymous, figuring out what all this codependency was all about. And that's when my healing journey started, which was about two years ago. And I've learned so much about myself and figured out what I needed to do to be healthy and be well. And I wanted some kind of platform where I could
reach out to many other people who are struggling with the same, who might not be able to afford therapy. And that's how the codependent doctor came to be. So that's my podcast. I've also written a book called Enough As I Am and a journal. So I'm just having all sorts of fun practicing medicine and doing a bunch of cool things on the side for myself.
Speaker 2 (04:12)
that. And I love and I'll tap into kind of conversation that we had before we got, where we started recording is we were talking about how both of us burnt out and in that burnout journey, we had to create a different way to work and exist, giving us more space. Do you want to talk a little bit about your journey and how you had to kind of shift things? So now you do have space for podcasts
and writing a book.
Speaker 1 (04:44)
Yeah. I, I first, my first step actually was just, walked away from my family practice, which was one of the toughest things I had to do. And I just, knew I wasn't well. I had gone through a period of about six months before that where I was, I was sick and you know, I felt guilty. So I kept going into work every day. I'd wrap my IV line around my arm, hide it under a sweater.
I went to work, had some drain tube hanging out of my chest, which I patched up with some gauze. Like I was quite sick, but yet I felt guilty and I felt like I needed to go into work every day. I felt like I didn't want to, you know, I couldn't let the team down. I didn't want to let my patience down. So I was constantly giving of myself and I had nothing left to give. And yet I kept going. So I recognized that I was becoming
very resentful of people who still wanted my attention. I started, yeah, so I was quite resentful of my patients and the people in my practice when really what it came down to is me not being able to ask for what I needed. And I wasn't able to do that at the time. I walked away from my practice blaming family medicine for why things weren't working in life. yeah, so that was step one.
Maybe not the right step, but I think I needed a total reset. And so at that point I started, you know, going through, going to therapy and reading, doing a whole bunch of reading and, and figuring out what I needed to do to be healthy. had no idea who I was. I was always somebody for somebody else. And so yeah, step two was getting to know myself. And then I slowly started to go back to medicine.
but I never went back full time. So I started to figure out who I was. Part of that was like getting into like plants and just nature and being amongst anything that was like I felt was beautiful and that brought me peace. And so now I do a combination of work and then just things that I really like. And for a long time, I didn't know what those things were, but trying to find this balance. I've got my, I've got
my one podcast, I'm starting a second podcast because I love it so much. I didn't realize that I was a creative person. I wasn't fond of drawing, so I didn't think I was an artsy person, but turns out my art just looks different. And it has been a lot of fun to explore that creative side that I didn't even know I had.
Speaker 2 (07:26)
It is fun, but it takes space. am like you. And I mean, I completely burned out, pretty much stepped away, kept the contracts that I had in business, but shut down everything else. And then you and I sound very similar, went and researched what is going on with me. What can I do to help? Hit therapy, but I've been in therapy for a long time and really stepped into how can I
really get to know me and stop being the chameleon, stop shape shifting, stop stepping into how do I want to create my life? And I, like you, brought in creativity. I brought back baking. I brought in dance. I brought back horses. I spent a lot of time in nature, really restructured my business in a way that felt supportive. But it took both of us crashing and burning to get to that point. And I'm kind of on the mission of
Speaker 1 (08:00)
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:26)
I want to catch women when they're yelling mayday mayday before they crash and burn while we still can pull the nose up with a plane and come to a level spot and you can still keep going just differently. And yes, I think we need space and we need to restructure how we're doing things, but we don't have to all crash and burn to be able to, to have to, it's not even be able to have to restructure your life.
Speaker 1 (08:56)
I don't think I really recognized that I had limits and didn't know what my limits were. And, you know, often when I'm talking to patients about limits, I'll refer to like lifting weights. You know, I know I can lift 10 pounds with the weights, but can I lift a hundred pounds, right? There's a limit as to what my muscles can handle. But when it comes to my brain and my brain power and the level of stress and responsibility that I can take on in life.
It really is quite limitless and we take on a lot of things. We get stressed out. We, we like, okay, you know, this is too much, but then you somehow get used to that level of stress and it becomes standard. That's your new baseline. And then you start taking on more and then more, and then you get, you know, I'm stressed out again. I need to slow down. We don't necessarily, we slow down. We just get used to that level of stress and then we take on more. So it's kind of this like,
When it comes to our brains and what we take on, it's really quite, it could be limitless, but it's not. So it's nice to recognize that you do have these limits and yes, you need to turn it around before you hit that limit because when you hit that wall, everything just shuts down. ⁓ You just can't function anymore.
Speaker 2 (10:18)
Yeah. And I love the reframe around we have limits and we know kind of physical limits and we can stretch those a little bit to grow. But seeing that we have capacity limits and what we can do without burning out in our day-to-day life. In that, when we recognize stress, and I think a lot of us do recognize at some level that we are stressed and we have learned as, especially women, but as humans,
to turn down our body signals. I mean, we learn as little kids, right? When you're in school and you have to go to the bathroom, but the teacher's gonna get mad or they only allow you to go once in a day or whatever rules are there. We learn that using the restroom is going to be a bother to someone else. So we're not gonna do it. We learn to ignore our own hunger signals.
just because it's going, we don't feel like we have time to eat or it's going to be a bother to somebody if we take the time to eat. So we have been really programming ourselves in ignore those signals that are coming from our body. And then when we have the signals of stress, it's really normal for us now to ignore those as well. And so I really hear where you're coming from in, we create new baselines of the stress. I had
thought about it like that, where it's like, we have a stress level. And then we just created the news baseline of, well, I can handle this stress level. I can do hard things, which becomes a motto of a lot of them. I can do hard things, which just means I'm going to overload myself and say, Yeah. I'm so a person that it's like, I feel like, ⁓ if I have done it,
Speaker 1 (12:01)
pride in that.
Speaker 2 (12:10)
through hard work, sweat and tears and blood on my own, that that is more valuable than if somebody had helped me along the way. And as I look back, I'm like, well, that's ridiculous. And look at how much help you turned down because it didn't give you that badge of honor. And what I was doing was upleveling my new normal. And as you share that, I'm like, ⁓ so we're just...
creating a new normal and creating a new normal with higher and higher level stress. And we're not even recognizing it. So when I'm saying I want to catch women before when they're yelling Mayday, they're not even yelling Mayday. They're not seeing the planes going down.
Speaker 1 (12:53)
They don't know. I sure, I sure didn't. ⁓ And I definitely, it really resonates with me when you say that we learn to ignore these that our body is giving us. I don't know how many times I've said, man, I need to go pee. then like six hours later, I still haven't gone. Cause I haven't taken that five minutes, not even, to pay attention to what my needs were and to do that.
going to the bathroom as an example, but it repeats itself over and over and again, all these times that we ignore what we need to be well and healthy and comfortable so that we can keep going for other people.
Speaker 2 (13:36)
Absolutely. And that's the key is we're going for other people. I mean, I lived on coffee and drank very little water because I was short on sleep, pushing myself beyond capacity, burning the candle at both ends and thinking that the caffeine was just gonna get me through. And it was just making me feel worse and worse. But I wasn't able to really tune in and say, this is what I need. It was a huge journey for me.
This is what I need and I have to put my needs before someone else. And that felt so wrong at a very deep level.
Speaker 1 (14:17)
I for myself, I also kind of thrived when people would say, I just don't know how you do it all. ⁓ So I took some pride in that. ⁓ I'm doing such a good job, right? I'm sacrificing myself. I'm doing all these great things and people are, you know, they, they like seeing it. And ⁓ so I took a certain amount of pride in when people would say those things and it just encouraged me to keep going.
to not ask for help because asking for help might make me appear weaker. It was a sign that I wasn't strong enough to do it all. I wanted to be the rock, the one that people came to. What I felt didn't really matter to me. It was tough at times, but I felt like
Like I got something out of being the strong one for other people.
Speaker 2 (15:21)
Absolutely. It became a part of my identity. And this is who I am. This is how people see me. And I know as I shifted and started having more boundaries and saying no, which is, know, hard thing to do, but saying no, that there was then that pushback of, you always are the one that steps up under that. But you, and then it's like, but now I'm letting people down. So then we have all those emotional ties and this is who I am.
And now I'm letting people down and I don't like letting people down. And we start to understand why it is so hard for the strong one. And one of the things as I was journaling around myself ⁓ was I had written, the strong one is tired. And I'm like, am so tired at the same time I can't rest.
Speaker 1 (16:15)
Yeah. The strong one also is sometimes angry or resentful, right? Cause you're not getting help from other people. You're handling that whole load by yourself. So part of me is getting like a little bit of a reward. People are like, ⁓ man, she's doing it all herself. But then I'm exhausted and, and I become resentful of the people who aren't just magically offering to help me. But I, you know, that, that fell on me as well. Like I recognize that.
Speaker 2 (16:17)
And there's
Speaker 1 (16:44)
I need to be able to ask for help and that's gotten a lot easier. But it's hard when you know that you're disappointing somebody and I still think about those things and then I'm like, you as I'm healing and I'm recognizing that I don't have to be everything to everybody, it's okay to say no. And it's okay for somebody else to be disappointed and I don't have to be everything to everybody.
Speaker 2 (17:10)
Right. I think like highlighting it's okay for somebody else to be disappointed. Sure. Because that is a huge thing that I had to learn and sit with the discomfort of, ⁓ okay, I'm holding the boundary and it's making them unhappy. And that's okay. And they get to have their experience and I get to still hold my boundary. I mean, as a parent, it's something that has been very valuable in parenting in, okay, so I'm holding this boundary.
And I totally see they are disagreeing and that they are having emotional experience regarding my boundary, but holding that boundary. And as I played with it in parenting, it was easier for me, I had to do it there first to then hold it with adults because adults felt more threatening when they were pushing those boundaries. And I expected it from my kids. Like if I'm saying, I'm sorry, we're not gonna have ice cream for breakfast.
I expected pushback, right? They're going to be upset. But if I tell somebody, I'm sorry, I'm not going to volunteer for that, and then there was pushback and that upset, that was harder for me to deal with. And so it was shifting my expectations around when I hold a boundary, it's normal for humans to not like boundaries, and it's okay if they're upset and they get to have their experience. Like Mel Robbins says, let them.
Speaker 1 (18:35)
And then, bye.
Speaker 2 (18:37)
and so focusing on me, but really looking at, you know, it's okay that somebody else is upset. I can still be okay with me.
Speaker 1 (18:47)
And I love that you practice doing that in kind of lower stakes situations, because it does take some practice. And so even just, you know, saying no to going to a movie, you know, thank you for thinking of me, but I'm not going to be able to do it. And being able to say that without coming up with like a whole list as to like, why you can't go, you know, this whole elaborate story of I need to do these things instead. So just practicing in these low stakes situations.
brings you to this place where it becomes a little bit easier to set boundaries and higher stakes situations. It's not easy, but just a little bit easier, right? You're starting at a different baseline. You're starting at a place where it's already okay to say no and to think about yourself. So I love that you started that with your kids. And I think as a parent, you know, sometimes it's hard to say no to our kids, but you have a little bit more authority there. when you get to, yeah, when you get to colleagues and
saying no to bigger things that becomes a little bit more challenging. You know, even if it's saying no to like some loyalty card in a store, right? Practicing with those little things can really go a long way.
Speaker 2 (19:58)
I love that. And because there are some low stakes things in our adult world that yes, we can say no to instead taking the handout that's coming into the pamphlet or whatever, the, um, the loyalty card, having those little knows that they really don't care. Those are easy starts and it is a practice. This isn't something that wave a magic wand and have, it's a skillset that we just have. No, get to learn it just like any other skillset that we get to learn.
Speaker 1 (20:27)
like that salesperson who shows up when you're having dinner, right? You don't have to answer the door. You don't have to take time away from your family to go answer that door. That's a boundary, you know, keeping that door closed and sitting there with at your dinner table, remaining engaged with your family. That isn't, that's another low stake situation where you're, you've set a boundary and you're like, this is my family time. I'm going to stay here. Yeah.
hauling you on the phone who are trying to sell you something. You know, you can get off the phone quickly. You don't have to stay on the phone with them. So lower stake situations can be really helpful.
Speaker 2 (21:04)
great. And just like, okay, we can start low. We can start where there's not going to be a lot of pushback. It gets to be just like, this is it. Don't answer the phone. ⁓ my husband have a different, like he answers the phone for everything. And I'm like, I don't know that person. There's my energetic boundary. ⁓ I want to talk about kind of the emotional load because as women, we have taken on a huge emotional mental load.
that I think is unique to us in a lot of situations where, least in my personal situation, my husband does not carry the same emotional load and the mental load that I do. And he is a very active participant in our relationship and parenting. He still does not keep track in his head of what we need on the grocery list and when the dentist appointments are, and you need to do this, that, and the other.
Can we talk about how that mental load is really impacting our health and how we're experiencing burnout?
Speaker 1 (22:13)
Yeah, it's just more stuff to take on and more stuff to think about. You're thinking about Halloween's coming in the next two months, what are we going to do for Halloween costumes? And I can't speak for every man out there, but my former spouse really didn't think of those things ever. That tended to land on me. But I didn't ask for help with it either. ⁓ So I think as women,
born and when we're raised, we're raised to be caregivers. We're raised to always think about other people and be selfless and to give of ourselves. I feel like that's part of our training as we're growing up. we see our mothers do that. We see our mothers to do it for other people. We see dad going to work every day and then coming home and enjoying dinner. And not every man's like that, but
That was like that in my house growing up. So I feel like I was taught at a very young age to always be the one thinking about everybody else. And I think that's just part of our socialization.
Speaker 2 (23:23)
Yeah, I agree. love it. It is a lot. And I love that you used it's part of our training because it steps back from it's part of who we are to it's part of this learned experience. And you're a hundred percent right. That was the model that I saw was, you know, my grandmother taking care and caregiving and you know, all of the details that she cared for. And my mother doing the same, all of the mental load and
Speaker 1 (23:24)
That's a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:50)
just and it is that and then I'm following in soup but it is all of the to-dos and you know I was very fortunate I had a very active participant dad who was there who did do things but he still never thought about I don't think he ever bought a birthday present or a Christmas present sure ⁓ it was like they'd go under the tree and he'd be just as surprised as we were ⁓
but there is that mental load that we're carrying and it is something that we have been trained, have learned. So what can we do when we're feeling that level of burnout? ⁓ I guess, let me step back because as we talked about, there's a lot of women out there who are not seeing that the plane's going down. What are the signs that we can start queuing in to?
Maybe I am in trouble. Maybe I am getting so overloaded that I'm going to crash and burn, but I'm not recognizing the signals yet.
Speaker 1 (24:52)
Sure. So for myself, I became incredibly irritable. ⁓ So there's a couple of things maybe. Maybe we can go back even further before that. I just, wasn't feeling well and ⁓ I just, pushed through and everything's good. And I was having, you know, it seems like minor heart palpitations, mainly from anxiety, I think. And I just, I'm fine, right? Push through that. And then you start feeling, you you're crying in your
and you're having to convince yourself to go into work. So that's, you know, something that I had. And then I actually physically started getting sick. My body just was reacting to all these cortisol levels that were just flying all over the place. There was a lot of stress there and I got this like weird bone infection and it went into my joints and like it was, it was crazy how sick I got and I was still showing up to work every day just
not knowing what and I was having trouble just listing my body. yeah, so think getting physically sick was one of the signs that I was burning out and my body was trying to slow me down. Another one was just getting just really irritable. My patience was razor thin and I was barking at my children and I'm a nice person and I
love working with people, but when you're dreading going into work every single day, there's a problem. Like that's never been, that's not me. And it was so out of character for me to hate going into work every day, crying in my car and having to give myself a pep talk before I went in. I slammed doors on people, on patients. I was not always kind.
So, and that was, it was just so different for me. And even still, even then, I think I just, I just kept going and I don't know. I think now I recognize it that, that there was a problem, but at the time I was like, it just, just keep going. Just one more step, one more step, one step in front of the other. ⁓ but it was, it was a lot. So I think for me, it was my body breaking down, telling me that I was done.
after I was done being sick, went back to work. Everything was great. And then the heart palpitations got worse and started getting chest pain. Like it just, my body just fell apart and I was like, you know what? My body's trying to tell me something and I stepped back. And as soon as I stepped back, I felt better. ⁓ so it was, it was amazing what having those high levels of cortisol, those high levels of stress, they do take their toll on your body. So.
Physically, you might notice that things just aren't working well. You might be irritable. Things are you're out of character. Things that used to make you happy are no longer making you happy. They just become this extra chore that that you need to do and everything felt like a chore. So I think that was those were signs for me that even now I recognize when I'm getting stressed. I
I'm like, my heart is fluttering again. Okay, I need to back off. So there are definitely little, you know, I stopped watering my plants and they're dying all of a sudden. I'm like, okay, you know, that is very unlike me. I love my plants. Anybody who knows me knows I love my plants. So when they start dying, I know there's a problem. So just recognizing that there are signs, there are things out there and you need to pay attention.
Speaker 2 (28:35)
Yeah, I resonate very deeply. for me, I also had the resentment, the anger, the slamming doors, the ⁓ anxiety around opening my email. And it's like, well, my email is not going to come out and bite me. But it was more what was going to be the extra things that were going to be added on. couldn't control. I didn't know.
what was gonna pop up in my email and be like, my gosh, one more thing I have to deal with. But it then took me getting curious and noticing what were those signs. So now, like you, when I start to see things of like, and I'm also a plant person. So I have a peace Lily that gets droopy and sad. And I love her because she's my like, wait, if she's droopy and sad, I'm getting droopy.
Speaker 1 (29:31)
Drupians.
Speaker 2 (29:32)
I'm
not paying attention to anybody else. And then I start looking around and I'm like, oh, and the fern looks really sad too. And it is a cue of how I am taking care of myself. I look at, am I rushing through tasks or am I enjoying tasks? I have backyard chickens. So am I going out and just letting them out and, you know, locking them in at night or am I actually spending time out there? Am I enjoying the egg collection?
Am I sitting outside during the day? So the things that I start going, wait, I've lost this. I'm getting too stressed. I do need more space. And what I learned is I needed space so that I could be creative, that I could breathe, that I could, and it didn't take me any more time, but it was kind of decluttering life. And once my house.
But decluttering life gives me that extra space in, okay, I cook dinner with intention and not just rush through it or, you know, do something, you know, throw in a frozen pizza. It's looking at, I don't have to make everything from scratch, but like, what's the intention behind it? Am I intentionally living or am I not even seeing what I'm doing and just rushing from thing to thing?
Speaker 1 (30:51)
Yeah. And stress is different from burnout. So you can have low levels of stress, have a weekend off, feel better on Monday, go back to work and be loving life. Burnout is more of this like sustained period of stress. So it's long periods of time to the point where you don't care anymore. You don't open those emails. You know they don't jump out at you. You know they don't bite, but you don't even care anymore. You don't even open them.
You don't care if your chickens are running around the yard. There's eggs everywhere because no one's been picking them up. You're like, I'm pretty sure they're getting food somewhere. Like you kind of, stop caring about those things. And that's kind of a sign that you've just kind of given up, right? Things have gotten too hard, but you don't need to get there by setting boundaries and
telling people how to interact with you. You can kind of protect yourself that way. And so you need to set life up in a way that's sustainable long term. maybe that means you're not working 70 hours a week anymore. Maybe you do need to decrease the amount of hours that you're working. And so you have more time to take care of yourself. But burnout, burnout is tough. And yeah, it's a place I never want to get to again.
And so I am setting myself up so that that doesn't happen. And I want to be having fun when I go to work. And I want to feel passionate about what I do. And I feel like that's where I'm at right now. So I'm quite happy.
Speaker 2 (32:27)
Yay, so am I. And I am so glad that you brought up the part of burnout is I don't care. Because it is something I truly felt and it is not something that I have really acknowledged or even shared. But there was a point of I am making myself do like basic survival things for me and animals and children.
⁓ like I will get them to school and then I didn't care what I did for the rest of my day. And it would be, I'm just going to go back and lay on the couch till I had to set an alarm so that I could go pick them up and.
Speaker 1 (33:08)
I'm gonna eat my ice cream and watch a soap opera that I don't normally watch, right? Like you just, you just done.
Speaker 2 (33:14)
That's, I guess you're just done and you don't care. And I didn't respond to emails because I just didn't care. And that is not me. And that is, and that's where it's like, okay, this is like a huge thing. I need help. But it's really looking at and talking about that as women, we get to that point and I masked it for the rest of the world. I just, and I work from home.
So I didn't have to show up anywhere. And so it gave me more flexibility, I guess, in not caring and not having, I don't have a boss that's pushing me and saying you have to do this. So I could let things slide and let things slide further than I would have in any other situation.
Speaker 1 (34:01)
Yeah. And you know, women are now, you know, we're in the workforce, we're working full time. Then you come home and there's still this, you know, we still carry the bulk of the work at home, that unpaid labor, taking care of the kids, cooking dinner. And then you have this invisible mental load trying to make sure that everybody is where they need to be. Everyone's getting their teeth cleaned, their vaccinations.
whatever, right? There's this invisible mental load that is there and it does not take much for things to start piling up. And you know, I feel like I always felt like I was standing on this like tectonic plate. So I had work and kids and mental load and everything. So you're standing on this tectonic plate and anything can start shifting at any point. And once one thing starts breaking down, it doesn't take much for everything else to start crumbling.
⁓ especially if your day is, is full with, with all the things that you're doing. And it's, I love that a lot of men are starting to become more involved. in my experience, I always had to ask for that, additional help and I wasn't good at that. So, ⁓ there's definitely room for, for asking for help and getting other people involved to help you manage things. And so that if something does start going.
wrong at work, that you do have those supports in place to help you with managing other things at home while you're trying to fix what's going on at one end.
Speaker 2 (35:39)
And I think it's so, and you've mentioned it several times as I resonate in, it is hard to ask for help if we have this identity of I'm the one that can do hard things. I'm the one that gets it done. And I definitely had the belief of ⁓ it's just easier for me to do it and get it done. Then part of the mental load overwhelm was it was easier for me to just do it and get it done than have to process and think to ask what I needed, even though I needed
help and I knew I needed help but it was like ⁓ my gosh if I have to explain the steps of what needs done and teach my husband how to do this that and the other you know with whatever kid stuff that was just too much I'm just gonna push through instead of asking for help and the help was there but I just never gave myself that opportunity to ask.
Speaker 1 (36:29)
Yeah, I think for myself, I always, I also had this belief that I did things better. ⁓ you're right. So it, you know, you had this, I had this mentality of, might as well just do it myself because I want it done right. And if I teach somebody how to do it, there's, they're probably still not going to do it the way I wanted to. And in, in truth, there's so many different ways to do one thing. There's so many different ways to do
dishes. You don't have to do the dishes in the right sink and let them dry in the left sink. ⁓ There's so many different ways to do different things and I really needed to let go of that because it's my perfectionism coming out and I felt like I did certain things better than other people. So I always pushed myself to do everything.
Asking for help also means letting go of some of those things, some of those beliefs that you have that certain things need to be done a certain way.
Speaker 2 (37:38)
so key because like I was totally the person that would go behind my husband and rearrange the dishwasher so that it was like I didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (37:49)
I still do that!
Speaker 2 (37:53)
Okay, so my learning curve has been the dishes are done, open the dishwasher. So I can't see how he loaded it and I hate the way he loads the dishwasher, but the dishes are done. And I had to let myself get to the space of the dishes are done and I didn't have to do it. So we also in our relationship had to learn, so I didn't step in that
Like I did other stuff. So evening stuff with the kiddos and he did the dishwasher. So I wasn't in the kitchen overstepping him. And we've gotten into a great space where that can, you we can really step into that and be okay with that. ⁓ I would love you to talk about cortisol. Cause we've mentioned it several times. think it's such a big impact in our lives, but no one's talking about
what it is and how it does impact everything.
Speaker 1 (38:56)
Yeah. So cortisol is a normal hormone in all of our bodies. It's commonly referred to as the stress hormone. When you are needing that extra boost, cortisol comes to the rescue and gets things going and gives you that boost to get you through that moment. But when cortisol remains elevated for long periods of time, that's when you start having some health issues.
It's not good to have sustained levels of cortisol ⁓ for long periods of time. And it will catch up with you and it will start affecting your everyday health.
Speaker 2 (39:34)
Absolutely. And it is something that I just literally, when I went into my provider and we're talking about hormone replacement therapy, she's in doing blood work and she's like, let's check for cortisol levels. And I'm like, okay, this is cool. So I think nobody's ever checked for that before and don't have results back yet. So we'll see on that one. But it is such a big thing in that how we are living
is impacting our bodies, our minds, our brains, the entire system. And it's so important to think for women to hear that the patterns that we have developed have served us well. Like we, you and I got a long way being the strong one and doing it all. And we just now have to come to a balance.
where we don't have to lose our identity, we can still be a very capable person and we don't have to do it all.
Speaker 1 (40:36)
Yeah. You don't have to be that person who puts on the whole turkey dinner all by yourself, right? It's okay to say, this is going to be a potluck. So and so can you bring the potatoes? Can you do this? ⁓ but the way I was raised was one person put on, put on the whole event and you know, you're sitting there and you're cooking right up until the last minute and people are already sitting down and eating and you're still doing stuff at the stove. And you know, you're one of the first ones to get up and do the dishes.
You don't have to be that person. ⁓ It is okay to have other people help and other people don't want to help. And as a codependent, so we often talk about like over giving in relationships and doing too much because you feel like that's where your worth comes from, right? Your worth comes from doing things for other people. So yeah, it's, I know. I still struggle with asking you for help and it is a...
daily task for me to be able to do it. But I'm working on that. it's lovely to not have to put on all these big turkey dinners by myself and to have it be okay. Just because you make the best potatoes in the family doesn't mean that you have to bring the potatoes, right? You can make the turkey, you can do something else. Let other people do some of those things and we'll all get along.
Speaker 2 (41:59)
absolutely.
Can you share with us as we've talked about ⁓ codependency, what that looks like? Because I think we've gotten a little bit just a few shared stories, but what does that actually look like in the tail?
Speaker 1 (42:12)
So codependency is when you lose yourself in someone else, whether it be like another relationship or whatnot. So you lose track of who you are as a person for somebody else or for another relationship. So that can look like being a people pleaser, maybe over giving, know, doing too much because you see your value in what you can do for other people.
You don't think that people like you just for who you are. You believe that people like you because you're doing something for them. So you end up over-giving, people pleasing, being a bit of a perfectionist, feeling like you need to do things perfectly or else people might not like you. Oftentimes codependence don't like conflict. We don't like having other people be upset with us. We take that as like a personal attack. And a lot of these...
traits come from how we were raised. Maybe we were raised with inconsistent caregiving. You know, we didn't always feel like there was love or we needed to prove ourselves in order to get love from our caregivers. So that's...
That's basically where codependency comes from. It comes from all sorts of places. If your parent was an alcoholic and wasn't able to give you their full attention, you know, you're gonna end up not living your life as a young kid who should be doing fun, happy things, but you're gonna end up taking care of your parent. You're going to end up doing things because you want your parent to be proud of you. So not just you don't feel like intrinsically you're good.
and that people are just gonna like you because you're you, you think people are gonna like you because of the things that you've done for them or you're trying to make them proud. you're doing things perfectly.
maybe you're being the good girl, the good child in the family, right? So you're not doing anything to rock the boat ever. ⁓ So yeah, you really kind of suppress who you are, what your needs and what your wants are for somebody else.
Codependents make employees. They make great caregivers because they do give of themselves so much and they're willing to work for their employers. They take on more responsibilities than they probably should. So employers do like codependents in a way because they're constantly giving themselves. If you ask them to do a task, they're not going to say no.
Speaker 2 (44:26)
rate.
Speaker 1 (44:53)
⁓ It doesn't work out well when you're looking for somebody who's going to be an independent thinker, but if you're looking for a worker, co-dependents make good employees. It's so unfortunate to think about it that way, but they're usually willing to sacrifice themselves for the betterment of your team. So employers sometimes take advantage of people who are in those situations.
Speaker 2 (45:19)
praised more for that behavior and then that
Speaker 1 (45:21)
Yeah,
for being selfless, they're praised for, you know, for being good, good workers. And yeah, it's really unfortunate. And you do see a lot of professional ⁓ people who are, you know, perfectionists that that comes from somewhere that comes from having to prove yourself time and time again, that comes from being rewarded for having good grades when you're young. So you just, you strive to do better every time because that's, that's how
you get validated. No, no, I was going to say, yeah, so caregivers do tend to, you know, be perfectionists and be willing to give of themselves. And it's an admirable trait, but it can hurt you in the long run.
Speaker 2 (45:53)
Go ahead.
I I think one of the things that you tapped into was intrinsically we don't find our own value, that we're getting our value from the external ⁓ accolades pat on the backs for sacrificing ourselves.
Speaker 1 (46:28)
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, some, sometimes people need to be told constantly, you're a good person. You're, ⁓ so you don't just, you don't feel you're a good person. You need to hear that from other people. You need that validation coming your way a lot of the time. So part of healing is just learning who you are and being okay with that and not having to do something that goes, that's
That's not counterintuitive. That's counterintuitive to who you are. So just learning that you're okay. And people are going to love me. Some people are not. Some people are not going to like who I am. And that's okay. There is nothing wrong with somebody not liking you. I don't like everybody. You know, there are, and it's for a variety of reasons, right? Maybe you remind me of that creepy uncle that I used to have. sometimes it's not, maybe I don't like something else.
That doesn't mean he's a bad person, right? He's probably a great person. Probably has lots of friends. He's probably a great guy. But just because I don't like him doesn't mean that he's a bad person. And I need to remember that about myself as well. Not everyone's gonna like me. I'm not always gonna know why they don't like me. And it doesn't really matter. I need to be okay with who I am.
Speaker 2 (47:49)
No matter what. Yeah. And that's so powerful in that not everyone's going to like me. I know personally there are people that don't like me and that's okay. But it's standing in that space of it is okay. Not everyone's going to like me. Not everyone likes coffee. Not everyone likes ice cream. Not everyone likes pizza. And those are just things that we are like, okay, you don't like coffee. Do you drink something else?
We take it very personally in that we don't like people. Are you a dog person or a cat person? Right? We assume that you're going to like one or the other. But when it comes to humans, we have this belief we have to like everyone, even though we know we don't. And we have to be liked by everyone. And that's for failure.
Speaker 1 (48:39)
Yeah. So I keep thinking of you can have this like peach, right? It could be them. I love peaches. It could be the most delicious, juicy peach out there. Yes. My partner doesn't like peaches because they got like the fuzzy, fuzzy furry skin. but that doesn't take anything away from the peach. It's still a great peach and lots of people are going to like the peaches and people who love the peaches are going to buy the peaches and surround themselves with it.
But then you're going to have the person who just doesn't like the peach. It does not say anything at all about the peach. Still a great peach.
Speaker 2 (49:15)
that's it. I love that analogy. I've often used a book in a book club where, know, you read the same book and somebody's like, oh my gosh, I love that book. It's amazing. Other people are like, it sucked. I hated it. You didn't learn anything about the book. You learned a lot about the person, but you really didn't learn anything about the book. It's like the peach. The peach is the peach. And so you are you and I am me. And whether
somebody likes the peach or not that says something about them but it doesn't say anything about the peach or you and exactly huge when i really grasp that concept in myself it was like okay i could just like do me and sure not really worry about what other people i mean you still like but what other people are thinking and if somebody
or somebody doesn't like, I don't take it as personally.
Speaker 1 (50:16)
So that requires confidence though, right? And that requires liking yourself for who you are. ⁓ But a lot of times, things like shame kind of keep us not liking certain aspects of ourselves. it's interesting how different people can handle different situations. I'll give you an example. So I was...
medical school, we're doing our rounds, we're rounding on patients. And one of my colleagues was, ⁓ so he was another resident, we're rounding on a patient and you he's been up for like 24 hours, he's exhausted and he's trying to present this patient and the preceptor just said, you know, you're so stupid. If I was your patient, I would kill myself. And this was said like in front of the patient, the patient's family was there. And, you know, we left
there and you know where I was like you know patting him on the back and he was like he was way out of line he never should have said that I am gonna complain to the college ⁓ and he was like he's wrong and at no point did this resident think that think that he was stupid at no point did he think he was being a bad person he was quite confident and he was he was very okay with who he was and I think
for myself, if somebody would have said that, I would have internalized that and said, wow, this just reconfirms everything that I secretly was believing and someone's going to find me out. So I think that different people handle things differently and it takes a lot of self-reflection and you need to really learn to like who you are to be able to shield yourself from people who might not like you. to think...
And to love yourself enough to go, well, that person's crazy. Like, how can they not like me? Like, what's wrong with them? Let them do their own thing, right? And me carrying on with my normal life without letting that affect me. But it does take a lot of work and self-love and self-compassion to be able to do that.
Speaker 2 (52:27)
Absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up. One of my biggest ah-has, I worked with a business coach and I definitely have a lot, you know, I've trauma in my history, you know, there's emotional stuff, there's codependence, like I'm coming from a different starting point. And it was talking to her about my fears and like putting myself out in my business and she didn't get it. And so being me, I'm talking like, okay, so like, let's get, don't you get it?
her upbringing, she had such a completely different existence and support level and confidence level where I think a lot of us were parented with shame and we learned like molded with shame in the school systems and religion and our families. She didn't have that experience. So she would have been like you're ⁓ the resident in the story and just like, well, that's bullshit. No, that's me.
Speaker 1 (53:26)
You
Speaker 2 (53:27)
When I'm doing it, it's like, you're right. There are already those insecurities inside of us. And it's that external reaffirming of, ⁓ somebody saw my biggest fear.
Speaker 1 (53:40)
Yes.
That imposter syndrome, right? You're just, you fake it till you make it and you don't want people to see those vulnerabilities that you have. But yeah, it's amazing how some people just have that confidence.
Speaker 2 (53:55)
Yes. And I look at it and for me, it's the eye opening moment of we are starting at different points. And so when I'm looking at like her quote unquote success of where she's taken her business and she's incredible businesswoman, she didn't have all this bullshit that she had to weed through and the inner confidence issues. like, I'm so many, you know, starting at such a different spot where I'm having to overcome all of these other things to get to the point that I have the confidence level of her.
to then take off. And it's like, ⁓ we're not at the same level, everyone. We each have our own struggles. We each have our own stories. We each have our own starting points. And we can't compare apples to apples because we're not apples. It's a completely different experience.
Speaker 1 (54:42)
Yeah. So an example of that is I went to medical school when I was later. So my, grew up in a family, very blue collared workers and ⁓ being a doctor was not something that anybody ever expected. Any of us going to university was a bit of a stretch for like anybody in my family. So ⁓ being wanting to be a doctor, I was actually discouraged from doing that, you know, saying things like, know, you can't be a doctor and be a mother. So there's a lot of
you know, discouragement there. And so I didn't go until I was later in my twenties. I went back to school and some of the students who were in the class with me, they still live at home. had their, you know, they had their packed lunches. Their mothers made their lunches for them, which was shocking to me. ⁓ So, you know, they'd gone to private schools, their parents were physicians. So they're starting medical school up here.
And then there was myself who I had two children that I was trying to raise. I lived away from home. I had to make their lunches and my lunch and try and make sure that emotionally they were doing okay and doing their homeworks and dinners. And a family who wasn't always super supportive of me going to medical school because women became nurses, right? Women didn't become doctors. So very little support.
So I'm starting down here and they're starting up here. There's a lot more support on their end. And we still had to get to the same end point, but I had significantly much more to make up and many more challenges in the way. that was me. That was my journey.
and we all have our own journeys, but we are all starting at different places in life. And just because somebody else is about 10 steps ahead of us does not mean that we need to stop walking, right? We need to keep going. And just because somebody's that much further ahead than us doesn't make us bad people, doesn't make us less worthy of that final goal. It just means that we need to work a little harder, work a time.
walk a tiny bit faster to get to that same point. But no, we're not all starting it at the same point. Many of us carry a lot of traumas as children. Maybe we had households that weren't super supportive. Maybe we didn't have people helping us with our homeworks. We're all starting somewhere different in life. But that doesn't mean that we can't all head in the directions we want to go to in the same directions as someone else.
Speaker 2 (57:36)
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (57:37)
Be okay with that and tailor our expectations and maybe we have to redefine success and celebrate smaller victories ⁓ to keep us going.
Speaker 2 (57:49)
Absolutely. And I think one of the biggest things I had to learn is I'm not behind. I started in a different place. I had different obstacles that I needed to overcome, but it doesn't mean I'm behind because we didn't start at the same starting point. And I think as you're talking, really letting the listener hear that whatever is going on in their life, they were really honoring that you have a lot on your plate, that there is a lot going on for you and you're not.
at a level place with somebody else when we start the comparison game, especially if we hit social media and start the comparison game, we don't know how much further ahead or how many less obstacles. think it's less obstacles that they had to jump over than even be further ahead. They had less things that they had to accomplish and less things they had to overcome than maybe we did. so-
Speaker 1 (58:41)
being
said, I know nothing about their life. Right? They could have challenges that I know nothing about. And maybe they are coming from traumas in the past. Maybe they've had pressure put on them their entire lives. And that's something I'm not going to see. And maybe they weren't loved. Who knows? We all we all have our our different starting points and
Just because somebody looks like they're further ahead than you doesn't mean that they are. And we're all just putting a brave face on every day and in doing what we need to do to get through it all.
Speaker 2 (59:23)
think that's the key. And I'm so glad you brought that up because it's that bigger awareness that we all have our own struggles and we don't see behind the scenes of another person's struggle. And so what feels big, what feels like it is weighing us down, stressing and struggle. We look at somebody else, like, they have it so easy. We don't know. so it's not, you know, like be kind because you never know what somebody else is dealing with.
you know, really be kind to yourself because you're also dealing with a lot.
Speaker 1 (59:56)
Yeah, as a family physician, one of the, one of the honours, I guess, that I have is being able to see, have this glimpse into other people's lives and being with them in their journeys and recognizing that a lot of these very successful people
have challenges in their relationships as well. And these are things that never get put out on social media, right? You see pictures of their like beautiful vacations. What you don't see is that spouse that's, you know, that's cheated on them. they, people don't see that child that they lost, you know, early on in the pregnancy, cause that, and that didn't go out anywhere. So people aren't seeing those struggles. And for me, it was, it's an
⁓ it's a privilege for me to be able to be with people in those moments, but it also made me realize that you really don't know what's happening behind those, those, those closed doors and what social, what you see on social media is not the truth. They're very curated posts of this like perfect life. And so if you're trying to compare yourself to that, you are going to feel like you're coming up short every time.
And it's just, it's not reality. Those are lies up on social media that you're seeing.
Speaker 2 (1:01:25)
Absolutely. As someone who posts on social media, I don't pick out the videos and pictures that make you look bad. Nope. I pick out the ones that make me look good. And there are times where I'm like, OK, this person struggle. don't look like I don't love that picture. So there's nothing wrong with it. And I will have my husband or my daughter go, it's fine, mom. Just post it. It's like, Because it's not that image of perfection that I'd like to.
across to the world. And so yes, we are curating what we see. And you know, when we're really understanding everybody's got our own struggles, then you know, it gives a little bit more empathy, hopefully for yourself.
Speaker 1 (1:02:09)
If I'm going to post something on Facebook, it's going to be coming from the right angle. Shirts are to be positioned properly, the necklace put on properly. People don't put on those imperfections on social media.
Speaker 2 (1:02:24)
Because we know the world to see us at our worst. I mean, that's human. that's okay. This has been an incredible conversation. And I know I've run out of time, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (1:02:39)
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (1:02:40)
Oh, you're welcome. As we come to a close, are there any other things that you'd like to share, little tidbits, something that we've maybe not covered or something that you want to touch on more?
Speaker 1 (1:02:52)
So I think if I were to leave one good lesson for everybody is just love yourself and be kind to yourself. We are our own worst critics. The way we talk to ourself, we would never talk to friends that way. So just learning to talk to yourself in better way, in a better voice and being kind to yourself. There is nothing wrong with you. You are not broken.
already enough for everyone around you. And if I can pitch my book, my book is called Enough As I Am. And it is a way of looking at, you know, issues that you may have dealt with, codependency, different ways that you were brought up. And I also have a journal called Enough As I Grow. And this is a 365 day journal. It is looking at
you growing up and how some of those relationships with people or with yourself, those relationships growing up and how those affected you as an adult and where you want to go in the future. So I love that journal and I made it and I still use it myself. It's always interesting to do. those Enough As I Am and Enough As I Grow are both available on Amazon. I have
a podcast called The Codependent Doctor. I'd love for you to join me there. And my website is www.drangeladowney.com. It's a new website. just came up last week. I'm trying to...
Speaker 2 (1:04:28)
I will have all of those links, including the link, the workbook and in the journal in the show notes. So if that is something you want, please, it's easy link, click and you'll get that for yourself. my gosh, Angela, thank you so much for this conversation.
Speaker 1 (1:04:48)
And Landy,
for all of the fabulous work that you do and for putting on this podcast and for being such an amazing host.
Speaker 2 (1:04:56)
thank you so much.
Landy Peek (1:04:57)
Angela, thank you so much for such an incredible conversation. If this struck a chord with you, I want you to know that you're not alone. There are a lot of us who are doing more than we have the physical, mental, and emotional capacity for right now. And that's okay. That's what we learned. That's how we survived. And.
Now's the opportunity to make a different choice, to live in a different way, to really stand up for you in the way that you need. I want to thank you so much for listening. If you know a strong one, a strong woman who would resonate with this episode, please share it. Your sharing shows how much you care. And sometimes it's hard to have those conversations.
but a quick share allows you to have the conversation through the podcast. I would be honored if you would leave a review and I want to let you know how much, how grateful I am that you are here. You are smart and capable and can do anything you set your mind to. You know this, you've proved this. You are also soft and kind and vulnerable.
and you are making a difference in this world just by being you, by your presence, not what you're doing, but by who you're being. I love you and I like you and I wish you all the happiness that today can bring.
Landy Peek (1:06:33)
Hey, before you go, just a little bit of legal. This podcast is designed for educational purposes only. It is not to replace
any expert advice from your doctors, therapists, coaches, or any other professional that you would work with. It's just a chat with a friend, me, where we get curious about ideas, thoughts, and things that are going on in our lives. And as we're talking about friends, if you know someone who would benefit from the conversation today, please share because I think the more that we open up these conversations, the more benefit we all get. So until next time, give yourself a big hug from me and stay curious.
Because that's the fun in this world.
